Ladies Please Give Me Your Thoughts On This

((((Guys, you can too. But you'll see why I specifically asked for the ladies as you read further. It's a long one, so you'd better make some time for this.))))

There are many positive things about having a "web presence" for ministry. One of the things I like to do is visit blogs of other people who are doing ministry similar to Oasis, read their stories, and listen to their teachings if they have them uploaded in MP3 format. The same thing happens with our web site. Every so often I'll receive an email from someone who browsed our site and found a post to be encouraging, or offensive. It goes both ways.

This past week I received an email from a lady who I do not know. She had come to the site and listened to the MP3 teaching entitled Women As Wives. The teaching was part of our Proverbs series we studied during the summer of 2004. She was very offended by the teaching, and wanted to confront me on it. This launched us into a series of emails back and forth over last 24-hour period.

I want to post this conversation here for a couple of reasons. One, I believe it was a very stimulating discussion. And any opportunity you have to stimulate new thought helps develop your theology and perhaps even your faith. Second, this was sort of a frustrating conversation for me. It hit me differently than some others I have had via email with complete strangers. It wasn't because she was disagreeing with me. That has happened before. But there was something about this one that made it particularly disheartening. See if you can see what I mean.

Although no one in the Oasis family knows this lady (even all I have is only a first name), still, I will change her name in this post so as to protect her anonymity even further. Here is how the conversation began, then progressed:

Hello Chris,

I just wanted to say I was shocked after listening to the online Mp3 preaching Women As Wives . It unfortunately sounded like a sermon spoken by a Christian misogynist. And no I'm not a feminist - I am an Evangelical Christian!!

Blessings,

Karen

Karen,

Perhaps you should listen to the rest of that series, the first three sermons -- the ones about covenant and headship, and men as fathers -- where I raked men over the coals and let them (us) have it for our failures towards women... blaming ourselves for the feminist movement because of our failures to love them as Jesus does. I would also be glad to put you in contact with my wife, or any of the women in our fellowship if you would like to try and confirm that I am a "misogynist". You would find that your assessment couldn't be further from the truth of my character and convictions.

Maybe if you elaborate a little further on what you disagreed with about the teaching we could then have a better conversation. It's a little difficult to receive a three-sentence email from a complete stranger who accuses you of hating women and be able to respond to it intelligently.

You took the time to sit down and email me, so you must desire to debate this with me, am I correct?

Chris

Chris,

What would be the point of having a debate with you if, as you said in your sermon, a woman cannot win an arguement with a man??

Karen

Karen,

You do not know me. You have taken a teaching (that is Part 4 of a 4-part series on biblical marriage relationships) out of context, and are now using quotes from that sermon out of context. It's been a while since I gave that teaching so I cannot quote myself exactly. However, if I used the words "you cannot win an argument" I would have been speaking to BOTH men and women. I do recall mentioning that whenever men and women are forced into a position of competition against one another (in a relationship), the masculine characteristics of men have a tendency to crush and hurt women when forced into competition. That is not an insult to women. If anything it is an insult to men. And it doesn't mean that a woman cannot debate or compete with a man in general.

Let me ask you a question. Would you suggest that men and women have not been created with distinct and unique characteristics? Equal... yet distinct?

Much like the church, when I consider all of the men and women in our fellowship, we are all given distinct gifts and abilities to use to build and help the body of Christ, the community of believers. Our gifts are equal, but they are not all the same. Some cannot sing in tune or play an instrument, so they do not lead our times of praise. That doesn't mean they are lesser parts of the body of Christ just because they aren't as "strong" in that particular area. Same is true with men and women. As I have seen in God's Word (perhaps you see it differently), He has created men and women to compliment one another and to fully proclaim his image in a marriage relationship. Therefore they must be different. They must have different strengths and abilities. One will be strong in one area in which the other is weak. And vice versa.

You have sent me nothing but one-sentence and three-sentence emails, so I really have no idea if you are interested in discussing this with me, or if you are just angry and picking a fight. As I said earlier, you do not know me from Adam, but you called me a misogynist and have developed an opinion of me based on ONE 55-minute teaching. Neither do I know you, but I have not called you a feminist based solely on your emails.

I urge you to listen to the rest of that series. Then, if you still feel compelled to rebuke me by the Scriptures and in the name of Christ, by all means do so. In fact, give me a call if you'd like. My cell phone is listed below.

Chris

Chris,

I specifically said that your sermon sounded like that of a Christian misogynist. What you said about women in the Proverbs had a very controlling misogynistic tone.

For example, how can you say men and women are different and then tell women not to what you call "gossip" about their husbands? Does talking about your husband to your mother, sister, or best friend automatically make you a gossip? Perhaps in excess but certainly not by just consulting someone in conversation over a matter. What you said sounded very manipulative and controlling. I agree, spouses need to speak to each other about their problems. However, I see no problem in a woman taking care of her needs, especially the needs a husband cannot provide. That is why fellowsip is so important among Christian women.

Perhaps it's because you are against the modern changes in gender roles? Do you really believe the changes in gender roles today are against the Scriptures? I went back to listen to the rest of sermons (4 of 4) on audio Mp3. Why do you "blame" men for the feminist movement? Do you think it was just a movement that happened as a direct result of too much violent male dominance? Has there not been violence and oppression against women in other civilizations? Further, why would you blame yourself for a good thing? The "feminism" of the society was an issue of equality. Do you feel that women should not have the same equal rights as men?

While I agree that over-blurring of sex roles (ones that are biologically based and not completely societal) are starting to cause an androgny that God did not intend, I do not see a problem with a husband seeing his wife as a partner and not a helper. Dominance is not equality. Would you say that because you write with your right hand that it is more important than your left? No. But what about the people who are left handed? Did God not make them left handed? Are they less functional because they happen to write with their left hand? That is the problem with strict gender roles. There are many people who do not fall into your either role distinctively.

I can see why men think woman are complimentary. For women as their "helpers" is quite favorable for them. We are however compliments of each other. The other "half" as we say. If you cut an apple in two pieces, do you normally cut it vertically? Or do you cut it horizontally?

"compliment"

an expression of esteem, respect, affection, or admiration; especially : an admiring remark b : formal and respectful recognition : HONOR

Does a man not compliment a woman he finds attractive?

"Adam" was an "earthing being" until the sexes were made. There was no such thing as a woman or a man! Do you think when God said  "It is not good for man to be alone" Genesis 2:18.. that He meant loneliness? Or perhaps God wanted "Adam" the sexless earthing to have reproductive capabilies? So the creation He made (humans) would be able to "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill and subdue the earth...Genesis 1:28?

I have not met you Chris, and I am sorry if I offended you personally by saying the sermon you preached was misogynistic, even if I still think it was.

Hope this is more than a few sentences for you.

Karen

Karen,

I appreciate your email. I also respect your opinion. There are a few things I'd like to respond to if you don't mind.

YOU SAID

For example, how can you say men and women are different and then tell women not to what you call "gossip" about their husbands? Does talking about your husband to your mother, sister, or best friend automatically make you a gossip? Perhaps in excess but certainly not by just consulting someone in conversation over a matter. What you said sounded very manipulative and controlling. I agree, spouses need to speak to each other about their problems. However, I see no problem in a woman taking care of her needs, especially the needs a husband cannot provide. That is why fellowsip is so important among Christian women.

Sin is sin. Gossip is sin clearly spoken of in scripture as such.  It is not just a problem with women ONLY, but Proverbs indicates that it can be a common problem among women. By the same token, I speak with men about the sin of lust much more than with women. Everything you said about women needing the fellowship and friendship of other women is, of course, true... and I completely agree. I would never suggest to anyone, man or woman, that he or she should not have friendships of accountability and people to speak with about their problems. But there is a line that can be crossed where it can easily become gossip if we are not disciplined with our tongues.

YOU SAID

Why do you "blame" men for the feminist movement? Do you think it was just a movement that happened as a direct result of too much violent male dominance? Has there not been violence and oppression against women in other civilizations? Further, why would you blame yourself for a good thing? The "feminism" of the society was an issue of equality. Do you feel that women should not have the same equal rights as men?

I blame men for much of it because it would not have been necessary if women were given proper EQUAL treatment to begin with. I'm not sure I would agree that all aspects of the "feminist movement" are a good thing. I believe many women have been tricked by feminism which supposedly 'freed" them from the tyranny of men only to realize they are trapped in this new paradigm to compete with men. As a result, men are being confronted with the 'new woman" who is told they must pursue status, wealth and power. Women have fought for a certain respect that now means they have to fend for themselves. As a result, men have learned that they are able to pursue and seduce these women with no apparent responsibility or consequence. Instead of women being cherished, men are free from any commitment to the woman because women need to be able to take care of themselves. Therefore, I do not see all aspects of feminism to be a good thing. Hopefully you will see by the end of this email, however, that I fully agree in the EQUALITY aspects.

YOU SAID

...I do not see a problem with a husband seeing his wife as a partner and not a helper. Dominance is not equality.

I agree, dominance is not equality. And I have never suggested "dominance" in anything I have said. My guess is that your interpretation of words like "headship" and "helper" is one of dominance (meaning you see them in a negative light). I do not see it that way. And I do not think God intended these words to be negative when He used them in His Word. I have no problem with a husband seeing his wife as a partner AND a helper. Especially if those are the roles God gave her. God exists in three parts... Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. All are equal parts of the Trinity, yet play very distinct roles. It is interesting to me that the same word Jesus used to describe the Holy Spirit as "helper" is what is used by God to describe the wife of Adam. In the New Testament Paul continues this thread by exhorting husbands to imitate in their marriage Jesus' relationship to the church, his bride. If husbands are to treat wives like Jesus treats the church, and wives are to help their husbands like the Holy Spirit helps the church, then this is the most beautiful picture of equality you will ever see. Who would dare suggest that the Holy Spirit's role is "lesser" or "weaker" than the role of Jesus? Of course not. One is not "dominant" over the other. They are equally God, yet distinct in their roles.

YOU SAID

I can see why men think woman are complimentary. For women as their "helpers" is quite favorable for them. We are however compliments of each other.

Again, it is obvious your interpretation of "helper" is a negative one. Therefore you are assuming men interpret the complimentary relationship of "head" and "helper" as one of dominance and power. It just isn't so. Granted, there are some who unfortunately do interpret it this way. As a result, women revolt. And rightly so. But rather than continuing to react to bad teaching, I'd rather go back and try to see it properly, the way a loving God intended it to be seen. I don't suggest that I have perfect interpretation. But I do know that I don't interpret "complimentary" as a one-way street. I agree, we are compliments of each other.

"Complimentary" (IMO) means that men and women were both created in God's image and neither is better or worse. In God's design he created men and women to complement each other and as such created differing roles for men and women.

The tendency in many Christian circles today is to stress the equality of men and women by minimizing the uniqueness of manhood and womanhood. Part of the reason is because of the abuse and failure men have had in their role. As I have already suggested, as men failed, feminism took over. When truth is abused, a rival position (in this case, feminism) that lacks logically compelling power can take on psychological compelling power. It is this reason so many people choose to believe in their viewpoint but do so based on feelings not on what is communicated in scripture. Certainly you would not suggest that all aspects of the feminist movement are rooted in scripture?

YOU SAID

"Adam" was an "earthing being" until the sexes were made. There was no such thing as a woman or a man! Do you think when God said  "It is not good for man to be alone" Genesis 2:18.. that He meant loneliness? Or perhaps God wanted "Adam" the sexless earthing to have reproductive capabilies? So the creation He made (humans) would be able to "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill and subdue the earth...Genesis 1:28?

This I will have to completely disagree with. I would like to see what Biblical hermeneutic you have used to try and suggest that Adam was not created as a man, but as some other earthly being with no sex characteristics. Even Paul says that "man was created first, then woman." No, I do not think that what God meant when he said "it is not good for man to be alone" was loneliness. Are you suggesting that the only reason God created woman (after creating the "sexless" Adam) was because he wanted him to have reproductive capabilities? That is not my understanding at all. I go back to the very nature in which God was creating man to begin with.

Are you married? If so, this passage should have great significance for you. Let me explain. When God said, "it is not good for man to be alone" perhaps it had to do with the whole nature and intention of how God created man in the first place. In Genesis 1:26 God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness..." The image of God is a community. We know Him as God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit. He is ONE God, but exists in the plural... thus the phrase "our image."

So it wasn't good enough for man alone to bear the full image of God. God knew this. By ourselves we cannot reflect His image. He is every perfect characteristic of a man, and every perfect characteristic of a woman. So he put man to sleep, and created his partner... woman. Now, God says, when these two are joined together as "one" (like God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit), you now have a better picture and understanding of the image of God.

What is marriage? IMO, in it's purest form it is to be the IMAGE OF GOD. As you know, the scriptures are filled with specific instruction for husbands and wives, and we most often are told to look to the example of the relationship between Jesus and the church to better understand how our marriages are supposed to look. But at one point in the book of Ephesians chapter 5, Paul says this after discussing husband and wife roles in a marriage, "This is a profound mystery -- but I am talking about Christ and the church." (verse 32). All along he been using marriage to illustrate Jesus' relationship to the church. He was saying that at any point in time and space a person ought to be able to look at a Christian marriage and SEE the GOSPEL. We are a walking, talking, living illustration of the great mystery of the Bible... the Gospel story... the story of God and His people.

So when a wedding ceremony takes place, there is really no greater human illustration for the work God has done through Jesus in His creation. I used to hate wedding ceremonies. I used to discourage couples from putting much into their wedding day ceremony. But now I have a different perspective. Now I understand that the wedding ceremony is perhaps the greatest opportunity for people to see Jesus, and to see what God has done for them. It's no wonder it was a week-long party in Jesus' day (he attended a wedding ceremony at the beginning of his ministry in John 2).

So what we celebrate together is something greater than a wedding of two people. Yes, it is that, and more. It is one more illustration of the love of God for humanity. The married couple is intended to be that illustration. Together, the biblically married coupleis the complete image of God.

Knowing that I interpret the marriage relationship this way, I am not sure how you can honestly believe that I view women in a lesser role than man. Different? Yes, in many ways. Also the same in many ways. But less equal? Of course not.

You have not offended me. I am not offended by people who find disagreement with me. I was a little taken back, perhaps, at the fact that a complete stranger had drawn a pretty serious conclusion about me. However, I am confident that if you lived near me and fellowshipped with us you would feel much differently. Relationship always has a way of helping you interpret a person's heart much easier. In fact, you might even be a little surprised to find that women have roles of leadership, teaching, etc... in our fellowship. There is nothing that a woman can't do.... except be a man. Likewise, the one thing that a man cannot do is be a woman. That's why they are so beautiful when they work together.

Your email has been stimulating. Feel free to pass along additional thoughts if you wish.

Chris

Chris,

What do you think man  (ad'uhm)  in our image, after our likeness... So God created man (ad'uhm) in his own image... means?

KJV - 26 And God said, Let us make man {Hebrew adam} in our image, after our likeness:... 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

NRSV - 26 Then God said, "Let us make humankind {Hebrew adam} in our image, according to our likeness;... " 27 So God created humankind {Hebrew adam} in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

NRSV - 6 but a stream would rise from the earth, and water the whole face of the ground 7 then the Lord God formed man {Hebrew adam} from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man {Hebrew adam} became a living being...

I find it interesting you have not replied to this statement. "...what about the people who are left handed? Did God not make them left handed? Are they less functional because they happen to write with their left hand? That is the problem with strict gender roles. There are many people who do not fall into your 'either role' distinctively?"

Karen

KAren

I'm not sure why you find that "interesting". Unless you are actively looking for things to indict me on. You had many questions, most of which I gave very lengthy explanations. To the question you asked below, I'm not exactly sure what that has to do with gender roles. I'm not understanding what you are trying to say. I do see that you continue to use the words "less functional" which continually indicates to me that you assume anyone who celebrates the "differences and distinctions" in gender roles must be looking at one as greater and the other as lesser. Of course a left-handed person is equally as gifted and functional as a right-handed person. That is a characteristic that helps make them uniquely who they are. Same is true for men and women. We both have characteristics that make us uniquely who we are.

I see that as GOOD. Not negative.

I was not dodging the question. I was just confused by it. The only thing I can figure out that you were trying to say is this... I have created a box for women (called right-handedness), but what about women who are born "left-handed"? The women who do not necessarily fit into the gender roles I have suggested God has given them.

If this is what you were saying, maybe you can give me some examples of what you are talking about that are specific to gender. Left-handedness and right-handedness are not gender-specific. But, for instance, some behaviors and emotions could be considered gender specific. Are you concerned that I have painted a broad-sweeping generalization and included all women in that, when some may not fit into it???

Please read this with all respect. I am not patronizing you. I am really trying to understand what you are thinking.

I think I see where you are coming from. I don't agree, but I see your point of view. I can respectfully agree to disagree.

Now, here is what I see in the Genesis account. In the description of the creation account in chapter 1 we find God's first word on the subject of men and women (verse 27)... they were both equally created in the image of God. Neither received more of the image of God than the other. So the Bible begins with the equality of the sexes. As persons, as human beings, as spiritual beings, standing before God, men and women are absolutely equal. I see a general description of the creation account, then a more specific one in chapter 2. This interpretation of Genesis 1 & 2 is consistent with the author's description of all the other pieces of God's creation. First he tells us when God created what he created in chapter 1. Then in chapter 2, verse 4 says, "This is the account of the heavens and the earth as they were created." Now he gets more specific.

Despite the complete equality, the more detailed account of the creation of the two humans written in Genesis 2 shows some differences in their God-given responsibilities (the gender-specific roles). God did not create the man and woman spontaneously at the same time, but rather He created Adam first and Eve later for the specific purpose of being a helper to Adam. Though Eve was Adam's equal, she was given a role to fulfill in submitting to him. While the word "helper" carries very positive connotations, even being used of God Himself as the "helper" of Israel (Deut. 33:7, Ps. 33:20), it is still taken as an offensive word by many who are proponents of the feminist movement. Obviously you, yourself, have taken offense at the word, seeing it to mean "lesser significance". If you refuse to see that even God himself used this word to describe his character and role, then I don't know what will appease you.

Karen, I want to say something pretty pointed here. But please hear my heart. It has become obvious to me that you have bought into the feminist movement hook, line, and sinker and have come out on the other side thinking that unless a man says "you are equal" in every way they are trying to control you, put you down, etc. You have not been able to see (or at least have been unwilling to see) that I am placing women in a more esteemed role than even you are!!! GOD certainly places women in a more esteemed role than the feminist movement does. It is very possible that I may have more respect for you as a woman than you have for yourself. Otherwise you would not feel compelled to pick a fight with a complete stranger on the internet who actually goes out of his way to explain how wonderful women are in their distinctive nature from men.

One more thing. In a previous email I asked if you were married. If you are, you will certainly understand what I am about to say.

There are traits my wife has that are distinctly feminine that I wish I had. But I don't. So I am glad I have her. Likewise, my wife recognized traits in me, things that are clearly masculine that she does not have, and she is glad she has me.

Why is that have to be a negative thing?

Chris

Chris,

I am sorry you feel that way. Did I not say that I saw no point in arguing with you about this?  I still view your comments as misogynistic.

Do you believe feminists are God's enemy? Perhaps it's some insecurity you have that makes you lash out at people with different points of views? I have gained so much freedom from my mother's generation and am very greatful and proud of their accomplishments thus far. Do you really know what feminism is? Have you looked into why they believe what they believe? Your responses show complete ignorance. I am not talking about radical feminists here.

Yes, you are right Chris I do take offense to the idea of a woman's role as a "helper". There is nothing honorable about having yourself controlled by someone else who is superior to you. Is a woman not her own person? What you say with the "helper" idea is that women were made by God for man and not for God. Why then should women pray to God? Shouldn't they not be praying to their man? Since he is the Christ of their life as you say?

And no, I am not married. I am in college.

Karen

Karen,

You have missed nearly everything I have said. I have had to repeat many of the same answers a number of times. Never have I "lashed" out at you because your point of view is different. I have actually done quite the opposite.

When you say you take offense at the use of the word "helper" you are not taking offense at me. You have told me much about your view of God. You are offended more by God than by me. Therefore I can no longer have this conversation with you because your issue is not primarily with me. I have been open-minded about your perspective. Openly telling you that I respectfully disagree. Your continually accusatory tone with me is evidence that you have become blinded by your convictions and have no ability to open your mind to something that could possibly be better. Which I do believe that my understanding of women is much better (FOR women's sake, not for my own) than the one you have chosen. You could poll any number of ladies in our fellowship who would undoubtedly agree. There is fear, combativeness, hardness, resistance, competitiveness, defensiveness, in your understanding. God did not create us to compete with one another. Women should not have to resort to that. I happen to believe he has much MORE for you. But as long as you refuse to trust Him and instead make your own way you will never experience that.

One thing I try to live by is the understanding that I have not arrived in anything, especially in doctrine and theology. I want to always remain teachable and open to new insights. But not ones that have to twist Scripture in such ways as you have in order to support a particular view.

I'm sorry, but this conversation appears to be over. You can have the last word if you'd like. But I will not respond. I will only pray. No, I will not be praying that you "see things my way". That has not been my goal in this conversation. As I said earlier, this has been a stimulating discussion. I do respect you. It isn't important that you agree with me or even believe that I respect you. But it is important for me to end this email by reminding you that I have spoken with you very respectfully and graciously.

Best wishes,

Chris

Well, that's where it ended. I know it was long, but if you have thoughts (especially you ladies) I'd love to see them.

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Comments

[Sharon]

I'll go first:
I AM a WOMAN..........a mother, a daughter, a sister, an aunt. I AM NOT a MAN..........a father, a son, a brother, an uncle. I believe that I am equal to my husband, my dad, my sons, my nephews. BUT, I am also "different". Being "different" doesn't make me "un-equal" if you will.

I sat here and thought for a while how I would respond to this "cyber-sation". Then I asked God for His guidance.

First of all I am thankful that I am a woman in that I was able to bear children, unlike my husband. Yes, I was the one who had to endure morning sickness, swollen ankles, and long labor pains, none of which my husband, the man, had to. BUT......he (the man) also did not get to experience the movement in my growing middle as the little one stretched and prodded waiting for his grand arrival. Yes, he DID place his hand on my belly to feel the movement, but it wasn't the same.

Second, I'm thankful that I am a woman because I posess "feminine" qualities that my husband does not. Now, anyone who knows me knows that I LOVE to work with power tools. But, that doesn't take away my feminine qualities. I actually "enjoy" the role before me. I don't look at my role as wife, mom, daughter, sister as lesser or un-equal to the male gender. I am equally thankful that my husband is a man in that he posesses those "masculine" qualities that comliment my feminine side.

I feel like what I am trying to say is coming off a bit confusing. Sorry. So I sat here imagining that God had created my husband & I equal IN EVERY WAY. Both physical and mental. First of all, we wouldn't be married. Simply because there wouldn't have been anything to "attract" us to each other. Don't get me wrong, I'm not referring to anything sexual here. Rather, if we were exact in every way there would be nothing to "learn" from each other.......no "mystery" if you will. No "excitement" which was key to the attraction. Secondly, there would have been no children since we both posessed the same (if any) reproductive organs.

This whole debate is so useless to me. It's a FACT! Men and women are DIFFERENT! We work together as a team. We become ONE as husband and wife, two EQUAL parts becoming ONE just as God intended.

I am an artist and at every show I do I hear this from several people who enter my booth, "I wish I had YOUR talent. I can't even draw a straight line." My reply is this, "If God had given us all the same talent, what a boring world it would be. I would LOVE to be able to play the piano, but if we were all pianists imagine what we would be missing by not hearing the other instruments?" I am thankful that my God created men AND women..........male AND female in His image. And that although we are equal, we are NOT the same.

Karen, if you are reading this I heard all 4 of the sermons in this series and I KNOW where Chris' heart is. Other than his wife I probably know him better than any other woman on this earth. Believe me when I say this, Chris respects women and honors them AND considers them equal with men. You DON'T know him. If you are ever anywhere near Southeastern Ohio PLEASE come to Oasis and visit. I think you would be pleasantly surprised with the strong women of Oasis.

[Val]

Wow,
I would like to say to "Karen", I know you share the thoughts of many women. I am not married, and am in college also. The one thing that has helped me to understand this is the issue of authority. I actaully learned this from my roommate who is engaged. As much as I wish I was free of any "restrictions" of an authority, that is never the truth. Right now I have a dad, a boss, professors, etc who exercise authority over me. I see where we can see men as a negative authority figure, because we have all been hurt by their sin. Above all, God is my authority. Although the other authorities in my life will let me down, God is my perfect authority. He will guide, protect, stand beside me, etc.
Do not mistake God for the sin of men. God is the ultimate in gentleness, love, hope, everything good. He directs us away from evil.
God will not bring destruction to our hearts.
There is a connection between men in general, how we view husbands, and also God as the ultimate Father.
I wanted to share my heart, because sometimes it is hard to trust God that he is the perfect Father. And once we choose to trust God, it will be easier to see the richness of marriage. Also, addressing our relationship with men in general, remember that we are sinful too. Jesus poured out a ton of grace so we can live. Men deserve the same amount of grace from us.
Let me tell you, as you listen and obey God, he will straighten your path.

[Amy Hoffman]

While this is in direct relation to the above post - it is not entirely directed to "Karen", but thoughts that I have in general regarding this matter. I don't want to come across as a mere supporter of Chris and his character, but as a woman who loves God and is sharing her point of view about the thoughts in the above conversation.

A misogynist is someone that hates women.

While I do agree with "Karen" that there are men that do hate women and force them into a submissive, ungodly role, Chris is not one of them and neither are the things that he has taught the body of Oasis.

I should know. While I have not ever been married, I am nearly 30 and have been violated in many ways by men. If there is anyone who would want to assert her worth and value as the same as a man, it would be me. However, when Chris was teaching this series I had to remind myself that it wasn't just "his" teaching. The stuff he was teaching was Biblical. If I believe that Christ was sent from God and returned to God and sent the Spirit who divinely inspired scripture, then I have to believe what the Bible taught - even if that goes against mainstream thought.

*As I reread what I wrote above, the thought occured to me that the church as it is today has not done a very good job at teaching men the Biblical view of being a man and a husband. Hopefully, Karen, you are not mistaking the views that Chris has of what the Bible says as the same as how the church has treated women over the centuries. Christ - God - values women and as such gave the job of having children and of having an incredible role in their formation and development.

God knows that women are just as able to perform the same jobs as men and are just as smart. In Proverbs it shows what women are capable of accomplishing. In fact, it is praise for the woman who accomplishes the things within that chapter.

Here I ask a real question - I honestly do not know the answer. Is there scripture that says that women could not hold a job or do anything outside of being a wife and mother?

While I think that some of the accomplishments of the feminist movement are good, I do not agree with the appearance that your importance lies with WHAT you can do and what you are not restricted to do. If we find ourselves within the Spirit of God, then we find our worth and importance in HIM.

God knew that complimentary persons were necessary to accomplishing harmony in relationship. Remember that God made Adam and Eve when there was no sin. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? What was Adam and Eve's relationship before sin? How did it change after the fall? I don't know. But I know that after the fall, sin entered the world and thus all kinds of evil have been around ever since. Meaning that sin pervades men and it pervades women. We all have to deal with some sort of sin in our lives. Sometimes that doesn't allow us to see things according to scripture, sometimes it allows us to see things all too clearly.

It says in scripture that even if we are slaves, to work as if we are working to the Lord. If we are free, we are to work as to the Lord. Obviously, being a slave in the 1st century was different than in the early US. My point is, that whatever our situations, we are to live as if we live for the Lord - all the time. Men and women alike.

I do not make this comment directly to "Karen", but when I see documentaries or movies about the horrors that we in the US do not have to see, I wonder why we are so concerned about our rights. I was watching part of a documentary about the AIDS epidemic in Africa. It showed this woman after she had just been beaten with sticks by men in the village for asking her husband to wear a condem while having sex. The husband was so enraged that he gathered men in the village to beat his wife. THAT is misogyny. And that is a direct result of an evil that has pervaded into the African world. By evil I mean a lie. A lie facilitates the deaths and raping of millions of people and leaves millions of chidlren orphans.

WHY ARE WE SPENDING OUR TIME QUIBBELING ABOUT THE VIEW CHRIS HAS OF WOMEN!!!!!

I lived with Chris, his wife and two children for the last two years. His love and respect for his wife is beyond anything I have seen. Their relationship has inspired me to not compromise on my beliefs. That marriages are based on mutual respect and admiration. Not to mention love.

When a man loves his wife as it indicates in the Bible, he will love her as Christ loved the church. He would die for her. And the responsibility is on him to make sure that decisions that are made - either by himself or together - that will be made in their combined best interest. Not just his and not just hers.

It is not about conrtol, but about freedom. The wife does not have to have the burden of having to make decisions for the family and then be held responsible. The man takes this responsibility to releive the woman of that heaviness.

It is the same as what Christ did for you and me. He took the yoke of slavery to sin on his shoulders and replaced it with a yoke of freedom, which is light. While it is our responsibility to have an active and deep relationship with Christ, we are no longer under sin. We have been freed from it's entanglements.

[Lisa M]

I'll just keep mine short and sweet......good grief! The overwhelming dialogue between "Karen" and Chris left me mentally exhausted. "Karen".....praying for understanding for you sister! And Chris....you are a brother and far from misogynistic! I applaud your efforts to communicate God's love and understanding to "Karen"!

[Chris (more from "Karen")]

When I returned home from performing a lovely wedding ceremony today I had another email in my inbox from "Karen". I have decided to stop responding to her, because this conversation just continues to get more hostile with each email, as you will see. In an argument or debate, whenever one party begins to run out of reasonable and intelligent things to say, they resort to insults and name-calling. In my opinion, this discussion has long left the productive stage and has now just become ridiculous, immature, and destructive. Therefore I will no longer participate with her in it. Here's what she had to say today:
___________

Chris,

I am talking about the way you interpret the word "helper". I am not offended by God (this is a very manipulative accusation on your part) I am however offended by sexist men such as yourself who like to use the Word of God to keep women subservient to them. You take issue with women today who are not to be manipulated by your false doctrines. How sad.

With all due respect, Chris, you don't know what being "open-minded" entails. You have not answered any of the questions I asked you about why you view the feminist movement so negatively. If being "open-minded" according to you consists of "changing ones mind", I suggest you go back to college to learn a thing or two. I'd like to know if you have actually studied theology as your sermons evidently lack that kind of background and knowledge.

Do you know what respecting other people's opinion entails?

1re·spect
an act of giving particular attention : CONSIDERATION

You obviously don't know that saying you respect another's point of view is to actually take it into consideration. You have not even tried to take into consideration the opinions expressed in these correspondences. Perhaps it's not uncommon from people who are hardend in their mindset.

I have never said I respect your opinion as it is not a respectable nor honorable one to have. You may twist Scripture to fill your manly desires, but that is not God's heart.

p.s. JESUS HIMSELF WAS A FEMINIST!!!

Blessings,
Karen

[Amy Hoffman]

Obviously there is more to this story than Karen is letting on. She is obviously putting onto you the thoughts and ideas of someone else. I've done this many times myself and I can see it here.

As those who follow Christ, we can listen to someone's opinion about things, but if there is a statement in scripture, then there is no way that we can consider another opinion as valid.

[Matt]

The problem with feminism is this...

Wrongly...we do live in a male dominated world. And I use dominated in a negative sense. We should live in a Christ dominated world. But as the human race we do have free choice and the choice we make daily is rebellion. So we live in a screwed up place. And to our detrement we live in a world that is historically "dominated" by men. She wants to gain acceptence in that world... make sure she gets her fair shake in that world... make sure she gets fair treatment in that world. She is worried about the WRONG world. I can tell she is very passionate about this topic, which is fine. But she is trying to "secure" her identity in the wrong place. We are aliens in this WORLD.

You have actually continually tried to tell her you do not care about the world's standards and responding to those issues, you are concerned about God's instructions and desires for his people and starting there. She was upset and saying you did not give time to her questions, but she has refused to acknowledge your starting point in any of her arguments.

Sad really. Like mentioned before, I think you care more about her REAL identity in Christ than she does.

[Amy Hoffman]

I found this website insteresting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_of_women

[Kim]

I read briefly through this exchange between Karen and Chris. I am new to to this site and am probalbly very late in response. Nothing this Karen said had any basic purpose for a woman that believes in God. You're talking about feminism that is not a part of God, and frankly I am sick and tired of the Women's movement. This is why men can't find jobs and take care of their families. This is why women are divorced and living on welfare. The basic value system left a long time ago thanks in part to the "Women's movement" Burn your bra ladies and delight in the fact that you took away a job from a Man "The Provider" as it was in the beginning. Society left its values a very long time ago and there is noone that could say or do anything to me to make me feel differently. We were so happy in the 50'2, 60'2 70's and then came along Gloria Steinem. Granted times have changed and we as women have changed with them, but now if we don't belong to a specific group, then we have no knowledge. I for one am a very strong woman, I have raised 6 kids have 5 grandkids a great job as a nurse. (Only because I wanted to not because I had to) I look to my husband as Head of the House as it should be. I pretend sometimes that I am head, but I am only fooling myself, as I choose to do.

Nobody said you had to lay down all you have to to do is stand up straight and everything my dear ladies falls into place, Why? because you are woman! You don't have to burn your bra to be a woman, you don't have to succumb yourselves to any act that you aren't comfortable with, because you are woman. Am I making any sense to any of you yet???
I'm very sorry, I am ranting. I get so excited about some things and my tongue overloads my brain. I am truly sorry.

[Kim]

I am truly sorry if I offended anyone on this website, but I just have such opinionated views on some things, and I can't change my thoughts about them. Please forgive me if I have hurt anybody.
God Bless

[chris]

Kim... I don't think you have to worry about that. I read your post and you make very good points. No need to apologize for them. That's what this site is for. For everyone to have a place to speak. It's not abotu everyone agreeing with everyone else or being conformed to anyone (other than Christ).

Keep posting. I appreciate your input.

[Lisa R]

I have read all of the comments on this subject and I am appaulled at the representation that Karen is portraying for woman! I am a very strong,successful woman with a husband,2 children and 2 jobs. I make more money than my husband. Does that make me more dominant? NO! My husband should still assume the role of head of the household because that is what God intended.Neither sex is more "dominant"than the other. Just as Chris has said,we compliment each other. To Chris: I hope that you do not take offense to what Karen had to say. I know that you respect women and do not have the views that she accuses you of having. Karen:I pray that God would open your heart to be able to understand his teachings.Usually when we are offended by God's word, it is only conviction.

[MiKennAdd]

I started reading this "conversation" what seems like a week ago and by the time I finished there were four more posts responding further and I had to go back and read them as well. Then, considering that I am a founding member of the Oasis "LAMBS" group (That's "Ladies And Mike's Bible Study" in case you didn't know) I felt compelled to respond myself. The problem is that I'm not sure that I know how to spell "compelled". Fortunately, that's also my point, so "le me splain"!

As many of you know, I teach Middle School Math, a fine subject which very much supplements Science. I often have the chance to plan lessons with the science teacher to give the students a fuller experience. The science teacher is kinda like my buddies with whom I might go out and watch a game or something. But there is another side of education life that must be fulfilled for myself as well as the students...the side called Language Arts. Written expression has never been my strong suite. In high school, I really enjoyed History, but was always tripped up a little by those darn essay tests. And when I am writing a formal letter, I always feel somewhat lacking in my ability. I need a Language Arts helper. Certainly not someone who is lesser than me, just someone who is differently equal. Amy Perrin can attest to the number of times in our teaching careers that I have asked her to proofread something for me.

And how many times each school year do I get asked to "help" Amy or another teacher for help with a math problem? At no time do I consider my role as "helper" inferior. To the contrary, I find it to give quite a boost to my self-esteem. I can do something that helps someone else and they can do something that helps me. What a complementary relationship...Different, yet equal roles.

Sharon said something in her response that struck a chord with me. If we were completely equal, we wouldn't get married at all. That's obviously not a situation that God has given His blessing to. If each of us could do it all, why would we need a helper or a partner or whatever you want to call it? I mean, feel free to come over and watch the game and drink a beer with me, but go home when it's over. I don't need any of you, male or female, as much as I need my wife. SHE is MY perfect helper, given to each other by God.

I just don't understand why people insist on doing things contrary to God's plans. Oh well! Keep praying everyone.

Love you all!

PS: Chris, can you proofread this for me?

[Kim]

Mike and Lisa,
Amen to both of you and God Bless

[chris]

Mike... that was an incredible illustration for the word "helper". Thanks for bringing it to life for us.